Interview: Derek Shulman
With the re-release of Gentle Giant’s 1977 live album, Playing The Fool: The Complete Live Experience, it was time to talk about the reissue with co-founder Derek Shulman. Derek has made a name for himself with the legendary progressive rock band.
From his Simon Dupree days, to forming Gentle Giant from 1970 to 1980, and then being a prominent record executive. Signing Dream Theater, Pantera, Cinderella, Kingdom Come, and Bon Jovi. Then, later on, re-establishing careers with Bad Company and AC/DC.
Not only does the live album contains three unreleased tracks that didn’t make it on the original album, but with an incredible new mix done by Dan Bornemark to makes you feel like that you are at the immersed at the venues themselves. Giant were doing promoting the Interview album. To talk about the re-release, Zachary Nathanson caught up with Derek on Zoom to talk about the live album, the ’76 European tour, and what he has in store in 2025.
E&D: Eleven years ago, I remember buying Playing the Fool after I had graduated from Junior College. This was the first live album the band unleashed back in 1977 at the time Gentle Giant was promoting Interview a year earlier. What made you want to go back, revisit and reconstruct the live album in its full original set?
Derek Shulman: Well, we were talking about remixing the original live album amongst ourselves for quite a while. And in fact, we just discussed it with Steven Wilson, who’s done quite a few of our albums in the catalog, prior to that. Steven would’ve loved to have done it, but it was a pretty hard work load. It was four shows, and the reels of tape were immense. So again, it was a decision we were making over a period of time.
Our friend Dan Bornemark called and said “I’ll give it a shot.” Basically, about nine months ago, he started finding the tapes and putting them together, and going through each one of the four shows which were in Munich, Dusseldorf, Paris, and Brussels. So, it was him that came to us and said “Instead of just remixing, why don’t you do this new presentation as a whole show that you would present on a live stage?” We thought “Well, great idea!”
E&D: How long did it take to complete a project such as Playing the Fool for Dan Bornemark to work on the Atmos and 2025 mixes for the reissue?
DS: It took about nine months to be honest. I mean, literally, he went through individual tapes. And in fact, a couple of songs which were on the 1977 album, he listened to every one of them and I think there were a couple of songs or tunes that were probably better in Paris than the Dusseldorf or Brussels shows. Dan went and remixed those and we added the songs which we didn’t put on the album, because we didn’t have enough room.
With two albums you can do so much. I think the tracks Interview, Timing and the song and my brother Ray’s violin solo which was always a highlight of the show in fact are now on the album. Dan also added the atmosphere of the venues and stage, so, you can actually hear the band talking to each other, and the fans, cheering and clapping and everything else.
It’s really the show which, if you weren’t there in 1977, you could be there in 2025.
E&D: Since 2014 with the re-releases going back to The Power and the Glory, you had worked with Steven Wilson who did the remixing on Free Hand, Octopus, The Missing Piece, Interview, Three Piece Suite, and the first album on Blu-Ray from the Unburied Treasure box set. Describe the difference when it comes to working with both Wilson and Bornemark for re-mastering and re-mixing the albums people know and love.
DS: Well Steven is an incredible producer, and an incredible friend. He’s a friend of the band; he’s almost a member! And his mixes, he never imposes anything that is a “Steven Wilson” mark. What he does is give the music clarity, he gives the instruments air. Every mix that he’s done, for the band, they’ve always been better. He knows exactly where the air should be in the mixes and where they shouldn’t be.
For a live album that’s a little different. Because when you’re playing live, there’s not much air, there’s a lot of different sounds and I think Steven could’ve done it, but the problem was, it was a lot of work to be done over a longer period of time.
E&D: I understand on the Gentle Giant touring history webpage compiled by Jack Skelly, during the fall of the ’76 European tour, Italian prog maestros Banco Del Mutuo Soccorso opened for Gentle Giant seven times when you were recording the live album. What was that like?
DS: We love Banco, they were a fantastic band. There were several Italian bands that we love taking on tour. A band called P.F.M. (Premiata Forneria Marconi) was another one. But they were great and we enjoyed warming up our audience because they had a similarity in their musicality that we had. So, we loved their show and really enjoyed the people in the band. It was a good combo.
E&D: The three tracks on Playing the Fool; Interview, Timing & Ray’s Violin improv were unreleased. Where were the tapes found and what were your memories during the live shows the band did for the European tour?
DS: Well, we had the tapes, already baked if you like and that’s where Dan Bornemark came in many years ago. He was a life saver actually in many ways. The tapes languished in Gary’s garage and Kerry had them in his attic. Dan, in the early 2000s, came to Kerry and said, “Before they disintegrate, let me make sure they don’t disintegrate”.
In that respect, he’s been a life saver for a lot of the music that we had been able to remix and bring out in a different fashion. So, the tapes were always there. The songs on the other tapes that we produced anyway, but we didn’t have the time as I said on the original double album, to put these songs and Ray’s solo on. Also, I think that the two tracks we’re talking about; Timing & Interview were on the album Interview which we hadn’t promoted yet.
So, it was kind of like “Okay, which one do we leave off?” And Ray’s solo did seem superb for us, but it was eight minutes of fun and games actually for the audience anyway. So, they were all there and he found the best versions and here we are with the re-imagining version if you like.
E&D: With Playing The Fool unleashed last week, what is next for you to tackle from the band’s catalog in 2025?
DS: There’s a couple of things on the radar, believe it or not. We’re a glutton for punishment I think, for working in our old age. I have a book coming out in September, talking about the band, and the band prior to that, and then my life after Gentle Giant.
In addition to that, the only album that we could not find the tapes for, was In a Glass House. They disappeared, I don’t know what happened to them, we looked everywhere, honestly. So, they seem to have disappeared. I have been in the studio in Brooklyn with an incredible engineer, he has the highest, high end A.I. programs, which is able to, not just to take the stems, but literally, take the tracks, track by track, from In a Glass House. And I’ve been remixing In a Glass House for perhaps, early new year or early next year. And it sounds amazing.
It’s really an amazing sounding record. Again, we were very disappointed because that was the first album, in fact Steven wanted to remix wayback when. He said, “I really wanted to remix that album”. We said, “We would love you to, but we can’t find the tapes. They’re gone”. So, that’s coming sometime soon!
E&D: How do you feel looking back now on the official fan video for ‘Proclamation’ when it was made during the pandemic, when the world was in lock down five years ago, and would you consider it to be your full circle moment with Gentle Giant?
DS: I think the ‘Proclamation’ video, it was an incredible achievement. Really my son, Noah, and my brother Ray, who unfortunately passed away two years ago, they put it together! What was interesting about that, was there was a whole new bunch of young players who were being influenced by our music, from YouTube or where-ever.
They weren’t old farts, like me, they were young people, playing our music. And so, my son Noah, created a whole campaign around putting together all of the parts from fans (and friends from bands like King Crimson and Yes) and we had over 120+ submissions. Noah did the visuals. Ray had helped to mix the audio sounds, so that was incredibly difficult.
So, it was a spectacular event. And it became the event of the year from PROG Magazine in England. But it really was something that I think was a light in everybody’s spirit, during that horrible period of COVID and I applaud Noah and Ray for making that spectacular project.
As far as the full circle moment, having in fact spent most of my life in the music business; whether it was in Gentle Giant in ten years, prior to that Simon Dupree, and then many years after and the other side, the Darth Vader side (aka the music business). I’m in the studio, and it’s really come full circle for me.
Because I’ve been listening to In a Glass House, and it was a tough album to make at the time. Because that was the time my brother Phil had left the band. Hearing it again, making it special, made me realize, having had another career as a music business person, executive if you like. That was a lot of fun and to be honest, it set me up financially.
What was most important for me, was being a musician, and creating, and producing, and writing music and being a musician, making art. And it really brought it home, just being there, what we did, what I did, and what the rest of the guys in the band did, it all came full circle there for me. This is who I am, basically.
E&D: Looking back now, what has been the most satisfying thing about Gentle Giant to you?
DS: The fact that we’re still talking about Gentle Giant in 2025 when the band basically disbanded in 1980. The fact that it has a legacy, and a life of its own that continued and didn’t die. In fact, it flourished in the new age, with the internet and everything else. That’s incredibly heartening to know that my music is apparently, even though I listen to it, it’s got a timeless sense about it.
I’m really happy about it. That’s all I feel, and I think that’s exactly where our music lands.
