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By: Dan Salter
A few weeks ago we received an email announcing the opening of The School of Music Business in London. Many of the people down to be tutors at the school were people that we knew from running the site and being around ‘the business’ for the last 10 years or so; this piqued our interest so Dan sat down with the founder Matt for an in depth chat about the state of the music business and how we can all do more to help the future generations of musicians.
(((o))): So first of all do you want to give us a bit on your background? You mention that you’ve been involved in the industry for a while.
Matt: I started in music as a journalist at Dazed and Confused, and then I went onto Time Out Magazine. Then I left there to set up the Music Business Courses at Central St. Martins.
(((o))): So that’s quite a transition, from journalism to teaching.
Matt: It was. As I’m sure you know, journalism brings in so little money, to keep myself in a house and food, I had to find ‘a real job’. So I went to Central St. Martins and pitched the idea of running these business courses. And they work, and they did well, but we had reached capacity there. And then I decided to move on and start my own management company. Found some bands, looked after them. Signed them to some major deals, and that led me up to where I am now, setting up the School of Music Business.
(((o))): What’s made you feel that now is the time to do this?
Matt: I think having spent five, six years in management, I could see bands that were either being taken advantage of by some aspects of the industry, or bands that weren’t able to take advantage of it themselves, because they didn’t have the skills or the knowledge to know what a good contract was to sign. Or how to correctly use social media to promote themselves, that kind of thing.
There was definitely – to use an awful phrase – ‘a gap in the market’. And the courses that were available for musicians – which still seems to be the case – is you either have long degree programs that go on for years and cost thousands of pounds, or there are a lot of online courses, which I think completely miss a huge point of the courses. The networking, meeting other musicians, label founders and journalists, that courses face-to-face allow you to do. You can’t get that when you’re studying on a computer, on your own in a bedroom.
(((o))): There’s a social interaction element that’s very important. It’s interesting you said that, because when I was at university I went to Salford Media College, and there were courses there for musicians.
Matt: Well at Salford you’d hope so! What I consider the home of the music world.
Dan: But they were all two-three year courses. Obviously you’ve compressed – well not compressed, because you’re not going to try and cover the same things in to a short time?
Matt: Exactly, we want to do things that are very practical for musicians. It’s mainly aimed at musicians, but we also have courses like Introduction To Music PR, so someone who’s considering moving into that business, that field, the courses are suitable for them also. Or for example, How To Start And Run Your Own Record Label, is a course that we have. It’s not just for people who have always dreamt of running a record label, but it’s for bands that are gonna release their own music – which happens now more and more. And they need to know a lot of the same things that a label founder needs to know. Just in order to get their music out and do it properly.
(((o))): It’s interesting that, because in the email you sent the list of names of people that are tutoring for you, and some of them I know. Jack [Clothier] from Alcopop! Records for example.
Matt: A legend, wonderful.
(((o))): He is, absolutely. But to me, that was the little click that went ‘Okay, this is something quite interesting’. I would pay money to listen to Jack talk about anything.
I talked about this in the group for our writers on Facebook, and the discussions in there can get quite lively, because I thought it might be of interest to some of our writers. It was a mix of reactions. Some people went “Oh wow, this is really interesting”, and then some of them just felt like “Why would people pay to be told what seems like common sense?” And I just wondered what your take on that was?
Matt: I don’t think I would call a lot of the things that someone like Jack has learned over many years of working in the music industry as just ‘common sense’, but I’ve seen people that do it really badly, and I’ve seen people like Jack that absolutely nail it, and succeed where many others can’t. So it’s about bringing those skills to musicians and other industry professionals.
(((o))): There are very few people who make success of running a record label right now, and Jack is one of those people.
Matt: It’s been really important for us to only use professionals who are teaching the courses, who are current professionals, people who are currently running businesses within the music industry, and doing it really well. So these people that I brought in, I worked with a lot of them in the past in a management capacity, or as a journalist. So I know who are the great ones, and the ones I don’t really want to work with.
(((o))): That’s something I was going to ask actually, is how you recruited the tutors? Are they all people you’ve worked with?
Matt: Not all of them. Most of them. So some of them, like Federica [Furlotti], who is a senior publicist at Outpost Media. I’ve never worked with her directly, as in she hasn’t represented any of my artists, but her reputation preceded her, and I knew all about her work at One Little Indian with Björk, and onwards into Outpost Media, and she’s incredible. So I’m really confident about the people we found, it’s a great team of people.
(((o))): We know Kim [Sklinar Green] from Never Enough Notes as well, she’s fantastic. It’s just interesting, going down the list saying “Know them, know them, know them.”
Matt: It’s easy to find course providers with major brands above them, big universities offering short courses, but because they work in education and not in the music industry, they don’t know the same kind of people. It’s not just about their experiences, it’s about people that are gonna be able to translate that experience to students and to musicians. As you were saying with Kim and Jack, these people definitely can do that.
(((o))): It’s an underrated skill, to not just be able to talk to your peers about what you do, but essentially people who don’t know anything about what you do.
Matt: Absolutely, and it’s not just about getting them to teach everything that they know, but also about their enthusiasm coming across, to really inspire the students to think “Okay, I can do this. He/she seems to really enjoy what they do, and seem to be doing it really well, maybe we can too.” That’s the hope.
(((o))): There’s a bunch of skills like how do to social media and those sorts of things – those are things that you can pick up. Then there’s a whole other bunch of skills – dealing with contracts – that is stuff you don’t just learn stumbling around in the dark.
Matt: No exactly. We’re about to launch a course next week called International Music Marketing, which is specifically for artists who — because of streaming services and social media, people get a lot of interest from overseas before they’ve even played shows out of their own hometown. And it’s about how you can market to that audience while still being based in Surbiton. And it is possible and there are tricks to do, but that certainly is not common sense, that’s something that is a full-time job for some people to do. So it’s useful to get the information.
(((o))): My girlfriend’s band have always managed themselves and done it quite effectively until now. They’ve been approached by a management company who said “Look, we want to take you on, so here’s a contract.” And although my girlfriend has a degree in law even she sat there going “I have no idea where to even start with this kind of thing.” So I think those are the sorts of skills that would be useful.
Matt: Sure. On courses like artist management, there will be aspects of looking at typical contracts. A manager will come, of course, and have to present. But we also have something called Sunday Surgery. Artists can call and book a one-hour appointment with either an artist manager or entertainment lawyer. So they can if they want to, bring a contract and go through it. And that’s a free service, there’s no fee for that for artists. You just have to book an appointment, and providing there’s a slot available on a Sunday, then come along and we’ll help. It’s difficult to get quick advice from people who really know what they’re doing. Most artists at the very start of their music business career won’t have the funds to invest in that kind of thing. Which is why we’ve got this free service, and why we’ve worked to keep the course costs really low.
(((o))): Where do you imagine people coming out the other side of these courses, to be going/doing?
Matt: Well obviously, depending on the course they do, if they do a management course or PR course, they’ll be a lot further ahead if they go to an interview with a media company and say “This is what I’ve studied at the School of Music Business.” They can also present the name of a tutor, which that business or industry know. These aren’t faceless people, they’re current professionals. So I think that will help. But just also the skills for musicians to achieve something themselves without having necessarily to go to management.
I noticed – I hesitate to use names, but I will – there is an artist, Thomas Cohen, who is getting huge amounts of press at the moment. Not hurt by the fact that he goes out with Daisy Lowe, but he could get huge press like a major interview in Vanity Fair or something, and still it hasn’t translated at all into a fanbase. His social media, I think Facebook page has 500-600 followers, and very little interaction, and about 100 people on Twitter.
(((o))): So he’s not leveraging that coverage.
Matt: He’s not managing to engage that audience. Now, whether that’s a problem with press now, and its importance in the music industry, which I don’t think it is. I do think press is important in the music industry, but I don’t think that’s his issue. I think he needs to look at the team he has around him and analyse where the weak links are. I also know there’s press releases that go out mentioning Daisy Lowe’s name. Now if you’re looking for credible coverage in the music industry – which is all about credibility – I think he’s talking to the wrong audience. But anyway, that’s for Thomas Cohen to work out.
(((o))): One of the other pushbacks that I had from some of the writers was that this is great but it’s training people for jobs that don’t exist. Whereas I push back to that, and said “Surely it’s just training people to do the things they’re already doing better”, because I deal with so many bands who just haven’t got a clue where to start.
Matt: As I said, I worked as a journalist, and I was jaded enough to move to a different section of the industry in order to make a living. I get that, I get why most people are jaded. But I also made money as an artist manager for 6 years, and did really quite well with it. So it is possible. But I wish I could have saved myself two years of making a lot of mistakes, and maybe started making money in Year One as opposed Year Three.
(((o))): Did you set the School up yourself? You haven’t partnered with anyone to provide the money, this is an independent operation essentially?
Matt: It’s independent, yeah. I work with a guy called Joe Andrew, who also helps come up with the ideas for the courses, and he’s a working musician as well. So that’s been very useful as well, to get a musician’s input from the get-go.
(((o))): And do you have a permanent base? An actual school?
Matt: Yes, we have. We have the school from 5pm until the nighttime, and all weekend. So we’re managing to utilise that time well, with evening courses, Saturday courses and then Sundays are our free days for musicians to book their appointments.
(((o))): Is there a vision to expand the curriculum as you go?
Matt: Absolutely. After a few months of running it, we’ll soon find out what there’s a need for, in terms of courses that we aren’t offering but need to be thinking about. And maybe even some courses that we’re offering that there isn’t a need for. Musicians and the industry will decide. But it’s something that I’m already looking at spaces in Brighton and Manchester to potentially go after.
(((o))): Interesting because both of those locations already have British and Irish Modern Music Institute (BIMM) branches, and I’m sure you’re aware of that. But again it’s slightly different?
Matt: Yes but what those places also have is a working music industry. So everywhere has musicians, but I have to be very careful where I set up the School because I need to get staff to go to the School. I can’t expect everyone to commute from London. So Brighton and Manchester obviously have very successful labels, management companies. They have the infrastructure already there.
(((o))): I certainly know some people in Manchester who would be interested, I think. Is this what you’re hoping to do as a long-term thing?
Matt: Yeah it is. I think there’s a need for it. And also it gives me, however small, more of a voice than I have in artist management. Management has helped me see some of the issues that exist, and I think this gives me – in a very small way, and I’m not saying it’s gonna be able to change the music industry – I wanna be able to make things a bit easier for musicians.
(((o))): We are in the middle of a significant flux point in the music industry at the moment. Nobody quite knows how to make money out of it. There’s the old school labels and then there’s the new world of people being self-sufficient. Where do you see it going? Given the experience that you’ve had.
Matt: There is still a music business, and there is still money to be made. It’s easy to point to success stories, and then the jaded people will say “Oh, it’s all major label-driven, etc.”.
Dan: Adele’s on an independent label.
Matt: Exactly. I have had a band signed to a major label, and I’ve had bands signed to small independent labels. I’ve actually made more of an impact – and frankly more money – with the artists that have signed smaller deals with smaller labels. You’re right, the industry is in a state of shift at the moment, but I’m not as jaded as a lot of people. There’s more things to be jaded about in the music business now than the lack of money. Because I think the money is there, and I think there is a way for people to earn money.
That kind of segues into Music Week’s recent issue, which has a cover of 30 white faces on the front, with the headline “The Future Of The Music Biz”. It blows my mind, especially straight off the back of the Oscars and the BRIT Awards, that that would ever be allowed to happen. I think it’s really offensive, and Music Week have tried to hash together some kind of apology.
They basically said “it’s an industry problem, we’re just reflecting that.” And that’s not good enough for Mark Sutherland (Music Week editor) to say. Because if you have a front page with 30 white faces saying The Future Of The Music Biz, what that should have inspired Mark Sutherland to do is print a headline on the front page asking “What is so inherently racist about the music industry, and how to do we change it?” That should have been the direction, and sadly he hasn’t done that. I’ve never met Mark, but I know his background, he edited Melody Maker in ’97 for a few years, and at the same time the Melody Maker had headlines like “Should we ban people who play garage music?” And this is all my opinion, I’m not reflecting the opinions of Echoes And Dust in any way, this is all on me. All that I’m saying about Mark Sutherland and the editorship of Music Week, is at best, its judgment is questionable.
(((o))): It’s a white guy syndrome all over. “It’s not what I like, therefore I’m just gonna ignore it.” There’s probably no untoward racism, but it’s probably subconscious.
Matt: I think it’s really bad editorship. And I’m probably shooting myself in the foot for saying that about the industry newspaper, but also I think a lot of people will agree, and I want Music Week – because it’s pretty much the only industry business paper there is – to answer questions and apologise properly, and change it.
(((o))): They just need to be trying harder. Because the talent is out there, it’s undoubted —
Matt: Of course! Especially now!
(((o))): — and that’s not representative of the music industry that I see.
Matt: No, or me. But I don’t want Mark Sutherland and Music Week as it is now to be representing me. Because it doesn’t.
(((o))): I think these things are slowly, incrementally changing. But it’s not going home overnight. Because a lot of these people are still old white guys.
Matt: I also have to say, it’s not in any way downplaying how great and influential and talented the 30 People Under 30 being chosen are. I’m certainly not bitter about not being in the 30 Under 30 list. I’m bitter about not being under 30!
(((o))): I think it’s a very exciting time to be in the music industry, and I do think the better equipped the young kids are coming through the better it will be for them. My boss’ son is in a band. They’re pop-punk, they’re not really my cup of tea, but they’re the sort of thing the kids love (god that makes me sound old!). They’ve had a guy who’s managed them since they were 16, they’re 19 now and they’re kind of getting some interest. He’s a bit like “Oh god, this is all getting a bit serious.” And so, first thing I did when I got your email was send it on to him, and said “Look, go get yourself educated. Find out, if this is something you really have a burning desire to do…” I wish something like this had been around when I was 19.
Matt: As a tangent from the education aspect of the school, we’ve set aside a fund specifically for musicians and startup music businesses. 20% of the schools profit goes into this fund and will be allocated independently, so I don’t have any say in who gets the money. But we’ll have a group of people from different parts of the business, people with different parts of the industry.
(((o))): Bursaries, essentially.
Matt: Exactly. Grants, obligation-free, don’t have to pay it back, to help pay it. Because I know how difficult it is to raise money to make money.
I think PRS do amazing things with grants and fees and bursaries. UKTI, also BPI, have a music export and growth scheme, which is wonderful, but there’s room for improvement for businesses to invest back into musicians. They’re happy to reap the reward of the success of British music abroad, but you have to fund that.
(((o))): You’re absolutely right. Getting that first rung on the ladder is so hard for so many young people, and without wanting to go on a rant into politics, is getting harder and harder all the time. Those that are already on it are just pulling the ladder further and further up.
Matt: This is looking into the future, but I dunno how working visas will work, should we leave the EU, for example. Because if it’s difficult to get a working visa in America for a week, maybe to do 3 shows, if you’re planning a tour…my god. I just don’t know where.
(((o))): You would have to deal with every country individually? It would be horrific.
Matt: But again, it goes back to the point that it’s not all common sense, and there are a lot of things that musicians should be aware of.
(((o))): One thing that’s a very hot topic for us, and has been for the last year as something we’ve put focus on, is the state of independent venues in this country. Is this something that you would consider a course in? How to run a music venue?
Matt: That’s really interesting, I’ve never been suggested it by anyone, but yeah that is interesting, and absolutely we would consider it. Live music and the business around live music is a cornerstone of the music industry, especially now.
(((o))): Without these places, there’s nowhere for people to get started, and that’s a real worry for us. We’re seeing this evaporation of opportunities.
Matt: It’s something that we’ll definitely consider, and I think it’s one of the things that’s at the top of the list of priorities when it comes to investing that money back. I can understand why they might need money in promoting or renovating or doing something to reap the reward, and if we can help do that, we will.
(((o))): We’ve been quite heavily involved with the Music Venues Trust and we went to the first Venues Day last year…it’s a helluva thing. There are associations and groups for almost every aspect of the music industry except venue people, until now.
Matt: I was thinking about this the other day. I think Record Store Day is coming up soon. And that was an idea that really worked, and seems to have done really well in raising the profile of independent labels and record stores. And seems to be executed in a really clever, fun, interesting way. And I’m sure there’s something that venues could do – even partnering with Record Store Day to cross-pollinate their businesses. All of the music industry is linked, but I do think a lot of different areas of the music industry seem intent on working very separately.
(((o))): It’s very isolated, like “well we’re okay, so we’re gonna protect our bit, and the rest of you can go hang”. And I’ve always said, this is a massive ecosystem, everything depends on everything else. I remember a couple of years ago, I got into quite a heated discussion with some people who were advocates of independent record stores about HMV, because at the time it looked like HMV might go out of business, and they were like, “This is brilliant, this will be brilliant for independent music!”, and it’s like, “No, it really won’t.” Because HMV write the cheques that pay for the independent music that you love to exist. 50% of music sales are still on CD, and people lose sight of this. It is an ecosystem and interdependent, and it’s very important that people appreciate that.
Matt: That’s been one of the great things of having a School of Music Business. That we’ve managed to bring in different people from all different parts of the industry, and if a similar thing was replicated across the whole business, across the whole industry, where labels were working closer with venues, and venues were supporting artists in a more direct way, there’s so much cross-benefit that I think would come. But again, who are the people to spearhead it? Hopefully it’s not the Music Week, hopefully it’s gonna be PRS.
(((o))): Or UK Music, or someone like that.
Matt: They do so much already. They’re both incredible organisations.
(((o))): And AIM. There are bodies out there.
Matt: There’s no one who’ve done more for independent music than AIM. They’re incredible. And I think it’d be great if they could all find a way to work together, I’m sure they’ll have more ideas than I possible could. I didn’t even make the 30 Under 30 list, so what do I know? *laughs*
